Peer Check
Peer Check

Episode 6 · 4 months ago

#6 — How to Bring Manufacturing into the Digital Age

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

From legacy infrastructure to prohibitive costs, innovating within the manufacturing world comes with many obstacles.

On today’s episode, we discuss what it takes to shake things up, introduce new methods, and decide which digital transformation trends are worth paying attention to (and which aren’t).

In this conversation with Robin Dechant, Co-founder of Aveo, you’ll hear:

  • Aveo’s origin story
  • The most exciting digital transformation trends in manufacturing
  • The biggest obstacles holding innovation back
  • How disruption happens in manufacturing

More information about Robin Dechant and today’s topics:

To hear this interview and more like it, subscribe to Peer Check! Find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or our website—or just search for Peer Check in your favourite podcast player.

Welcome to peer check, a Colab podcast. This is a show for engineering leaders who want to challenge the status quo for how design teams work together. You're about to hear a conversation about the ways the engineering world is changing and how top teams are carving a new path forward. Let's do it. Welcome to peer check. I'm your host, Adam Keaty, and today we're talking to transit manufacturing and what innovations are getting stuck. My guest is Robin D Shans, and this guy's done it all in manufacturing world, from being on the investor side of point nine capital to create in the famous industry for Point El Map and manfacturing community, to now starting his own company to day. Robin, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks again for having me here. Before getting any of this, tell me what this map is like. I've seen it hundreds of times served on the Internet. Why did you stare at this and what is it? Yeah, so I heard some some people call insident. That's the famous met by now and maybe give it a bit back the back story how I actually created it. So I was studying my first job at point man capital, point nine that there's noted STGBC missed, you know, a few couple of millions into BEB companies, mostly software and marketplace companies by the worldwide. And I saw that in two thousand and sixteen and summer and I think in early two thousand and seventeen, I slowly basically saw a lot of companies focusing on what was data called industry for zero. It's a fancy term. I think last you're it's head to I think ten birthday or so. Anyway, you now, for me been a little bit new to the industry. I mean have an engineering background, but still, you know, didn't understand a lot of what what these companies were doing. And it was very early. So initially, basically I created like just a google sheet, you know, and adding all these companies that I was seeing. You know, hey, we did it, try to short floor. We go into engineering, you know, digital twin software or whatever. And very fast, actually, within like a couple of weeks, I was diving deeper into this. I think this list already had like fifty companies or so, and so I thought myself, Oh Shit, how do I keep an overview of this? Right? So some my I came out with out, Hey, I need to categorize the all the of these companies, and so, you know, I was looking the website, I talked with the founders, and then I came up with a few categories and I was basically, you know, sorting these companies in these categories and, you know, I was going deeper again, and then suddenly they were I think, like eighty companies or so, and so then I was like, you know, I did a lot of work, you know, with the school sheet, with talking to all these founders, with all these insights, and so basically was just compressing all these insights into one block post, where part of this block post was basically a map showing all these company names within the different buckets. And this was I think in two thousand and seventeen, in summer, if I'm not mistaken, which was the first time I published it, and back then roughly eighty two one hundred companies. And basically since then I keep on, you know, adding new companies but also removing companies that do not existing. More than today is that as more than five hundred companies? Wow. So it's basically a map or five hundred startups and it's by far not complete. And also, I know that you know, some companies may be fitted different categories, but I think it's got to say that's probably the best view of industrial startups on one one Mapso to say. It's absolutely amazing and it's global to like I've seen that it's companies all over the world and it's global to I think the focus on North America and Europe, because also that was a focus at nine and since I'm native German and was also quite in the German market, I think there's a certain bias into it. Yeah, but it's definitely a not only Germany and not only real but what kind of a global I remember when you first released it and it was on Linkedin and people were commenting in the thread like all this company and that company and you missed this one and it turned into this like people think people kind of became proud of I think, honestly, and I'm curious, on the other side, the big company is the manufacturers, the leaders. Did you have people reaching out to you looking for introductions or how to find these companies or you know, who's the right fit? Did you start getting those types of connections to I think I got really very different kind of requests, like home different kind of people in different kind of companies, you know from and then a banker...

...who asked for an Xo file. I can set the off these companies and excel file, and I'm sure you know I have like five years of work here. Is a no, of course not. But and then you know from people work in the companies and marketing department say can you please add our company? You know, would love to be part of this list. And then also, of course, of you know people that say in digitization departments in large corporates. Wanted to better understand, if you all the players, so different segments. You know, when they want, when his growth where? Maybe this no or coutunities and so on. And to be very honest, I mean for me was really a great wedge to just, you know, extend this map but also explained my network. And again, you know, this helped me get to know more about these companies and the market and itself. So it was just like a glick great learning tool, if you want. Yeah, that's amazing. So where can someone find the map today? I mean, I've seen a hundred times. I'm sure you google, you probably find it, but where can you find it today? You can find it on my news stat or so. I've a newsletter which is called the future manufacturing. I think if you would, you come across it on my linkedin profile. So and of course on the block post that are usually update still and put the map out there. Sweet. That's amazing. So I'm curious and, like I know, I read again the year you talked with some of your insights for, you know, this year, and obviously this map is helped. You kind of look at this. What do you think? What do you see as hot? And I'll go to the opposite. What do you see is not after but what's hot right now. You know, what's not right now won't be hot and to use anymore. Maybe. So I think that's already something. That's you're already something and that's maybe you know to do when it hard started. So when I started, you know a lot of companies put the term industry for the zero on their home page. Then it was digitization. You know nothing. A lot of companies somehow you sustainability. I think most of them used as a buzz work, to be honest. Yeah, and so for me personally, and this might not be reflected on the map, but what what I think is super hot, super exciting is everything around infrastructure. And so maybe to give you a little bit the back story on this. I think you know, my Co forn and I was sometimes joking and he comes from manufacturing and software, sometimes joking. You know, a factory today similar to like a lot party, HMM, you know, all the time, basically everybody brings his or her own you know, machine or PC. You know, you show connect them, you know, and as soon as you rip off something else the system, maybe everything will crash. Yeah, and so, you know, that's why I'm most of these factories that got, you know, build up, you know, in the last few years, even decades. It's very, very hard to just, you know, set up a new soft system within the factory floor, and so I think systems that basically now bring this factory stack. That's how I called basically the the softest like. Yeah, now into the cloud makes it too, by exciting because, you know, as as soon as you have more software operating in a cloud, it makes it much more easier and all for other companies to build applications on top of it. And I think many people dream still off it's kind of like APP store for factories. Right, and I think we're far from this for now, but I think it's very exciting just to understand. You know what, I actually the biggest learriages to build stuff for factories very fast and efficient way. That's why I think, you know, investing in infrastructure like manufaction, excusing systems, for example, is one marriage ring waction to the market. Yeah, it's. Honestly, we're seeing very similar like I think teams are focusing more on execution than they are like the big, you know, Pine and this guy big dream of turning something to a digital twin for the sake with being a digital twin or thinking about, you know, how do I make my people more efficient? How do I give him tools that aren't took crappy? How do I actually just connect all the stuff together? Like that's all we're seeing. Like the people who are really truly making change are focus on something really tangible now, and it doesn't need a buzz word anymore, like it just is a piece of software that fits together nicely with all other stuff that's pretty easy to use, like largely as wor see or technology that's like that. Yeah, and I mean it's crazy because to two thousand, twenty two right who we're conaborating in lightning speech, you know, within Google sheets, notion whatever. And then you see this mechanical engineers. You know that's...

...still share and I mean you know a better than I. Yeah, all DF screenshots. I don't take to taking pictures. You know, it may be printing like a page, you know, writing something, taking a picture and setting it to a colleague. It's crazy. It's crazy and efficient. It's crazy. I'll conaboration. Actually, it's still such a the cour and tool se doesn't enable fast cortiboration within different teams, or you wouldn't one department, let alone cross teams. That and it's top to bottom, to like it's early ideation straight through to like sustaining delivering products. It is like the whole stack, like when we start at theaying of coli, we could have picked any part that we chose, like heavy design focus. But the same problem exists defining requirements as it does getting something in the manufacturing as it does, like mass producing something to take care of it, and it's like that's why I like use with the factory stack. Like I think it's much broader than that one they want to ask you about, because this is going to become, I think, a hot topic with the big PLM vendors and the next couple of years. What's your perspective on API and openness being integral to a factory stack? I'm a bit even open source. So it's strongly you know, love to see more open source solutions. I think maybe a lot of people in developers, maybe in these companies, might not be the biggest fans of open source yet, I compared to let's say tech, for example, and so I think this bottom up adoption for these tools is probably harder in this industry that. That's another industry. So that's maybe a little bit while a Hasitant. I think API is just giving the complexity of body systems and giving the frequment frommentation of the landscape. I think there has no way around, you know, Apis and interfaces, and that's probably something and I think goes back again to this, you know, like factory stack there and infrastructure. Why I'm so bullish about also like Apis and interfaces. And I think another, maybe reason, another point for this is if you would built today effectory from scratch now, you could implement talking of software all in a cloud. You know, that's easy. I think test I was learning here outside, you know, Berlin, this spig effectory. They can do it, or they do at least not have a lot of more and software. But I think ninety five percent of the manufacturing companies they just simply won't build a new factory from scratch today now because, you know, it's super costly and they have, you know, existing machines, they have existing in a factories and and so on build up. So that's why I think it's so tricky, because there's all this legacy infrastructure, all this customer developers. I mean that's one of the reasons why, you know, accenture is having a great time of manufacturing. They're building soltstimate solution being so much money with us right. And it's a bit for striking because then you see all these different systems but they don't really talk to each other. And I gain that's why I think you all standization apis interfaces, infrastructure. It's probably the single biggest they rich to, you know, bring all these factors into the visual a and the and the scary pair, in my opinion, is the people who control most of the keys are not making it easy for anyone else if you think about this stark difference between Github and it's ecosystem in comparison to the big four or five plm companies, it is like night and day. I'll give you example. Our Company did integration with PLM tool. It took like in earnest to do it really right. Probably took eight to twelve months. We did an integration just a POC way more complicated and in terms of like what the actual functionality was with Gira, two and a half weeks. Two and a half weeks versus like a year. And her team had for people on it and the two and a half weeks was one developer. Like that difference is going to make the spack until it'll do impossible. But what I think is changing is there's this unbundling happening in the market right now where companies are realizing they want point solutions that play well with everything else, that do a really damn good job of fixing a problem, and not big all on one solutions that do nothing very well but just happen to the same logo in the...

...top corner because of the way if you eyes are built today, you don't even need to know US software. You're in like we do it right. The toolship plug together so seamlessly that you don't even know. Like I don't even go into Gong for say, for our sales team. I get in slack. I hardly even I'd love all my deals and slack and I push it the sales for so I don't even know. I just work and the data just ends up in the right place, and that's like a huge shift that I think is going to common. It's going to cause friction, but it's going to cause friction some of the bigger players because those five hundred companies on your map are going to make that happen over time. Like the people innovators getting involved. They're going to be pissed off. I think that other companies and making difficult on purpose for competitive reasons, to not let you integrate. I think it's going to end up becoming his whole thing over the next five years. Yeah, I think it's meant. It's just a question of timing. For me, and I think you know also, the more infrastructure there is built, you know the fastest companies can grow. You know them all. We will see a free momentum in the space and for me it's just like a question a matter of time at whenness what come? Because, to be very fair, I think a lot of capital has been flown also to many of these companies, you know, in Europe, and I think, as far as I know this definitely investors, you know, who have had very high expectations, and these intuitions have not met yet. I think they haven't been, you know, loads of really big outcomes in his industry now, and was about tech companies that got created in manufacturing now and again. I think it's only a question of timing and nobody can predict that timing, but I think, you know, at something we will get there. But to be very fair, I think you also need to draw putting some consideration that in the last five years I think people had, or investors at least, had, pretty high expectations than what the market liberation. Why do you think that is? What do you think caused the like misfire now over the last five years? I think in many of these solutions, on a theoretical level, make completely sense. I mean, why would you have, you know, the software that controls even effectoring shop floor not in the clouds? Yeah, and or why wouldn't mechanical engineers not collaborate in the cloud about designs? Yeah, so, and again the problem is, I think, existing infrastructure super hard, always very unique. You know, even within the same company, two factories. You know, I think people assume once it's sort of one factory, you can easily expend to all the other factories of the same customer, but they may be a completely different systems. Yeah, right, and so it's again integration efforts and so on which call then, you know, dramatically slow down a sales cycles and integrations. And I think then, you know, software companies cannot show the growth that I think investors expect. And then you know, as an investor of course, if you not only investor in effectoring and you compare, you know, a true traditional sus company with one at sellenter infectoring, and you see, you know, the one is going from one to two, three or four million AAR, the other one is going from one to one and a half. I mean, you know, people place their best differently. So so what do you thinks the risk? They're like D do you see a world where people stop investing manufacturing, which means they're less tax air ADUPS, which means all the you know, companies. You need this help and I'm just not getting it. Like, what are you think's going to happen if there's not a change? So I'm very bullish on change that comes from the outside, meaning, you know, the disruption and manufacturing will definitely also come strongly from the outside, which means, you know, not from companies that already exists, but from new entrance like North Walt. You know, it's creating a new factory for betteries. Tells out of a good example in space. You know, we have spacex and we have more do space, for example. So I think there will be more and more founders who have very ambitious plan. It's also a standard manufacturing and I think there are investors who want to back on bitious founders with ambitious opportunities in the manufacturing space and now will inten to know, invest a lot of money up front, because I think you know, if you need to put the factory from scratch, it will cost you a lot of money. Yeah, there's no way around that, but that's something I'm very, very excited about. I also think, you know, companies that sell to manufacturing companies with a very low integration effort can definitely show their growth. And then, you know, the third point is what I mentioned...

...now a few times. It's like just the more infrastructure we have built, you know, the easier it is for new solutions to you know, pluck and place into these other solutions or on the factory floor. These it will come for him to scale to scale, because I think if you can slow down the sales cycles, if you can get rid of, or even at least slow down integration effort, then these companies also can grow very fast because there's enough players actually in the market. Yeah, yeah, it's funny. You said they're about like the disruption from the outside. I spoke with senior engineer and one of the main like autotier ones recently and he told me that Tesla, just based on how fast they move in comparison traditional automotive development, has forced the big traditional we ams to shorten a new product development like life cycle from say, it was forty eight months to thirty six. He's Hey, he said to me, as a full twelve months needing to be trimmed off from the day competitive and I'm seeing that now the other side. I'm seeing all the big players automotive now say we need better tools, we need to move faster. We need to build to get things out in the market quicker, launch faster. Like I'm starting to see that now on that pressure has changed the dynamic there and probably the same thing will happen spacex and and in the aerospace world. I think you're rightly. I don't think it's going to change holistically for the comings of pressure on all the software vendors to just move fat well or even just change their own way to move faster, until it's, like, you know, a dire thing. But I think we're at that inflection point, man. I really think like there's not a whole lot many years left. The market is going to hit a recession. There's going to be winners and losers. The teams were ready to adapt to it this time around are going to come stronger than ever. The ones who are not are going to get crushed when the Marcus slows down. So I don't know, I think that's too strends as well. They playing for this. I think on the one hand, you know on the macroeconomic trends with, let's say, you know, sustainability, and are we thinking of the supply chains, maybe even on shorting line, getting production back to a mederic nowel to it to Europe. But and this outsourcing and I think resilience and a supplied sin. So that, I think, is again the big factor. And a second one we haven't touched on, but I think the hyperscals are playing a more and more dominant role. So for ir key platforms, I think the hyperscalars, meaning you know, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and I think the market chain went to fifteen percent from like another three four percent like five years ago. So it grew tremendously, right, and I think these companies I would definitely bet on. So first I think they have distribution, especially Microsoft, in an industry, and the second you know, they know how to build develop a true so software products. So it's going to be very, very difficult for existing players, I think, to compete with them in terms of product. So I think that's another, you know, dominant factor that's putting pressure on. It's a existing players, even in the PLM, you know, and yeah, and cats area. So before we kind of wrap up and die, I want to dive into a little bit more. If you know, point nine. We're here today also, we've done there and I dive in. Yeah, what where? Can People get this information? You know, if I'm thinking about this, you know, you've got the newsletter, you got community. What's the right place to join and sign up to kind of get a hell of this? So I know I've gotten tons of value and I think lots of people will get backs. Where can they go? Yeah, I mean follow me on twitter. I think you know that's pretty easy. And then, yeah, the newsletter. You know, that's send out every couple of months. It's probably the best source in the community. Future many fit during that? I owe you can send up for the weightlist, the three, you know, another one. And I think in the end, you know, I think as long as you're in the market and talking too many people. Yeah, you you get a small learning as well. Sweet. So what took away from nine? Like you've got all this inside. I remember meeting you at point nine. We were talking back jess and must be three years ago. We were in more commonator, I think. At the time, I think I was too slow. Right. So, anyways, what you know, what happens often with Y see companies if you're not physically in st at least back then, when it was still, you know, not remote. Yeah, it was. I don't know if I ever told you. I think we did. We did our sea around in nine days. I think, open and close,...

...money and bank. It was like the biggest whirlwind. I met sixty VC's and nine days and there's just like you leave that call and some one was sen you would check on the way back. It was absolutely wild how that it has. That's a that's a time, time and discussion for another another day. But what took you away from nine? What got you out of the DC world to do in your own thing? I mean, you know, it was my first job and I think, you know, probably the best job I could have wished for, you know, not the freedom, responsibility. I was meeting amazing founders every day. I learned so much about company building in the only days and I as was part of, you know, several wards and worked together with the founders and I think of a time, you know, I realized I'm not in the drive a seat. I want in the observe a seat and for me it was very clear, you know, at some point I want to be in the drive a seat and so the more time that went into it, also realized that this is something I want to do and I think you all that, all that you say in the industry, the aret of this to move to the other side. You show it literally like a consulting or so. Right. So either you go, you know, the fully fetch career for, you know, analyst to partner, or, I think, you make the switch. But it's you know, the more time passes, the harder is to make the switch. And so for me then, you know, it was that time where, like a I turned thirty. You know, I thought about my next ten years and so for me was very key. Okay, there's only one move I need to do now. And when I was leading nine, I think one problem I got really I fell in love with and I'm really excited about. It's a very complex, very big problem is but it's a workforce crisis, HMM. And I heard it a lot of times in manufacturing specifically. Right. So, Hey, robin, of course we need software and you know you tools, but the biggest hinder in fact, or for US actually, is, you know, around people. We don't even have the skills you know in house to day that we need. It's impossible only to basically solve this problem by hiring external people. The telewaf telling this crazy so the only way for us to stay in relative and to grow is actually, you know, douttling down on jobability, you know, and enabling our own workforce, you know, to move into different jobs and roles or at least make them better in the current ones. And I think in Europe, or especially in Germany's probably is even more critical because it's similar to climate change. Today. We know in two thom fifty, they will be thirty five million fewer workers in Europe. It's affect and it's a fact you just cannot change today. And so, you know, how will you do this? And I think the my thesis basically now that we enter the golden nature of people, so companies will be very, very focused on their internal workforce and on people. And so the only way for me, itsually for these companies as to stay normative, is just to invest more and more into like impute engagement, in flute enablement and learning and development, which is part of this. That's kind of like the overall thesis. You know, the problem what took me away from nine and then, let's be my whole Interno journey so far. Just just to unpack the stat like that many people moving. Is it just straight up aging or like what is what's going to cause the workforce to be that dramatically different? But that's a huge number to try and figure out. Yeah, it's especially aging, especially Johnny, I would say, and so, on the other hand, is also, of course, you know, people who don't have to, who don't have the skills today that they must start, you know, and which is changing so much now when you t acknoledge and so on. But it's definitely aging a lot, especially in journey, the pace individ wile. So tell us, though, you started. What was the this? Obviously Ha haunded something your your you know, Commut Your Life Passion going forward here, and obviously something every day. I heard every day people are always talking about technologies. Cool, process is cool, but like really the people's the hardest part, and I agree, I think is the hardest part in anything, no matter is startness, ass company or manufacturer, product, it don't matters. The hardest part what what are you doing now, like, what's the fews today look like? So what I did initially was, you know, I have his news that or now, for I think for years, few differently, fectoring a couple of thousand subscribers. It enabled me very early on, you know, to establish connection with fonders like you, what other people in the industry actually was.

Once, you know, in Boston and I, you know, got invited from different founders and robot takes. Hey, robin, you want to come to our place? I show you a robot ory. Wow, this is so cool, you know. I was like, you know, one or two years in the jobs, like these people with twenty years of Excliens, they lightly to their office, they show me the robots you now and this is my job. Like it was so cool and so like, Hey, this news letter enabled me to make a lot of new connections and I thought always, you know, how cool would it be if this wouldn't be like, you know, connections one by one, so between me and one person. But how can we actually move this to like a more, you know, end to end connection? And so the first thing I should did, you know, was launching a future manufacturing community based on my newsletter. So this commentit now grow to one of five UN people on the weight list. We have two and other people within the community. There's a couple of events, you know, different channels and so on. And Yeah, something that I think worked really well when I was starting it at the beginning of last year, and then I teed up with my cofounder, Marco in August to the basically start a view. What we did, you know, was we heard so much now this problem. You know, we need to basically help our people to learn from other operators and get practical insights, and so we basically started with offering cohort based courses around topics attitude, transformation, manufacturing, which were selling, you know, on to the likes of Bosh, Mercedes and so on, and so basically, people could sign up for these courses and they lasted for six weeks and there were two sessions per weeks. So basically fits into the daily work. And we, yeah, we sold these companies these courses to know different people in different companies, usually project managers or, you know, headisations, and who basically, you know, want to bring the sitations within to their factories. Sweet, that's awesome and what like. That was August. We're here. That's Day. What it order? The learnings was been like staring. Companies are painfully heard. We talked about this number of times over the course downe but like what's what's, what have you? Learned since then and I'm having died in so now our visions basin is, you know, we want enable people to take on the jobs of tomorrow. Yeah, I think that's very clear. That's want to do that the next you know, ten years or even longer. I think our courses, you know, we got tremendous feedback, NPS of seventy eight, which would really proud of. You know, people literally loved it, but we also found, you know, one of the problems was people loved it but they couldn't buy so meaning, you know, we had people basically saying, Hey, they look Robin. You know, we want to, I would love to do this course. I think it's really ran for my work. But you know what, my boss doesn't improve the budget. No, he basically says, you know, in six months we can talk about my development plan and then, you know, we can maybe see if this course is relevant for me or not. Where another participants. We even have people and paying privately also for the courses I have due to this reason. But you know, a lot of time its basically internal processes, compliance and so on, and also talk down management, where managers basically said, you know, I don't think the schools is relevant, without really knowing actually what it was about. But this top time management everything to make it super hard for us, you know, to basically get the bottom up adoption for the courses. And so, you know, even though people were super heavy with the courses, they're really love that. They learned a lot of things and we create a lot of value. We thought, Hey, this industry is moving too slow, which is also, you know, one of the reasons now why we're basically shying away from many factoring. Well, it's a pt a little bit, because I think the problem is tremendously big. Right, they need to invest much more into learning, in development and also in people. But I've conversations with people and these are not small companies, but where, you know, managing directors told me hr for them is an Atmund function, all right, and I'm certagy priority and I think to be very honest. So sure now some of these companies, they will die very slowly, very painfully, and you just cannot save them. Right because if you don't have, if you had not understood this problem today, that you need to invest more in your workforce, and I think it's too late and there's so much to unpack here. So like, okay, I want what I'm taken here. So we started off talking about trends and manufacturing. Obviously, one of the...

...big ones we're seeing is the pain of just dealing dealing with people who are not the right roles and not having the right people. Not even talking yet about people leaving companies left, right center and there's like you has an agent's happening. And now you're saying, is that for something that people are coming to you about, asking you for it manufactory in sight from executives. They're asking you, which companies? We look at, Robin Ho, do we do this? Get the map. It's community. Then we actually give them an opportunity to learn this and like actually improve their people. They're like, Oh, hold on now, we gotta wait for next year budget cycle just to get a couple thousand bucks, like that's that's just that. I think it's a shame, man, because, like you look at your perspective of five hundred plus these companies, you've seen it on both sides the table now, investor, community maker and sort of a founder, and you're saying that like you're really going to have to pivot to something else in the short term at least, to get the velocity you need to be able to potentially go back, if you have the energy for it, to help fix manufacturing. Yeah, that's a little bit what we're doing right. I think I was just like a Stratigi focus. You know, we could invest much more now in into this area. I. Manufacturing, but I think from a comedy with but the building perspective and I think you know, there's probably better than I do rap, but we need to do focus what's best for the business. I still, you know, I would love to solve this problem for manufacturing today, but I think for the able success of our company, would definitely slow us down and I think that's not what we sign up for. I actually and that. I thought it was very harsh, but I talked to one investor initially when I was starting, and I was like look, I woant to focus on manufacturing because I know how painful and how big the problem there is, and then she was out. She was saying this, Robin, I would you know, I think I love what you do, but I don't understand why do you go into a dying industry and I thought I was probably very, you know, very harsh, but I also understand, I think, a little bit, which is coming from, you know, basically the companies. You know, there's company thing you just cannot help anymore, and it's also, I think I'm a big, big even like creative destruction. Yeah, and so some of these companies they just won't existing way and you come in some intern I'm not think that's the market. The part you said to like probably a minute ago, you talked about hr being just like an admin function and not a value center, like not a strategic focus. I think I've never curse and say it like that, but man, that could not describe better what's actually going on in the industry, because it's the same thing. What people don't invest in. Like you talk of the factory stack. It's why they're not doing it, is because they see it as only like, you know, right and green on the PNL and like, not actually investing their people on the stack actually being the way to make this toff better. There are a few, I will say, I'm talking to a few, like bigger auto players, industrial players, who have come around to this, like one of their key corporate objectives is their people, which I'm like that. Yeah, that's encouraging. But I think you're right. I think it's happening too slow and I tell you, if the market goes down quickly here and they're not ready, we're going to have thirty and forty percent layoffs again, just like when covid darted. But this time it's not going to come back the same way with the subsidies and all the rest that happen. It's just going to mean companies just don't exist or merge. Yeah, for sure. I mean you know that also good examples. So I think, you know, Bush, for examples, are doing a really good job, and I sting about the thend for example, and I think you know, if you look at where bushes today, I think they've done a really good job. And I think companies you know, that have a very clear vision how to digitize their business for the next five years. But also no have to smutch up empowerment, you know, imporing the team sense on, to build up to what's this vision. I think these are the companies I've seen which I'm most successfully so I think you all in the end this needs to come, you know, top down as well as whatsom up. Yeah, but most of the companies, if ever I've seen only, you know, the top down approach, which I think you know is it's probably like too few with less with the bottoms up part of that. Say, say you're person who cares about, you know, actually investing people in the rest, but you're in a role where you're a manager, you're an engineer, or even if you're a director in a big or and you...

...don't feel like you have the authority to make that change. Or is problems too big and someone else's? What can they do to like professionally stir the pot and the kind of get this by what? What can they actually do right now at a stare at moving this? I mean probably you know we have, I think, the first thing we need to invest in this culture, and it's a management style, a culture. I think that's probably something that needs to change. It's very hard something to change this from the outside right. Yeah, it's like a third party or so. I think this needs to come really from the management, from the company internally, and it's something, you know, where you maybe don't see the results early on, but it will take, you know, use even until this materializes. And that's again, you know, one of the things. What you also was saying about I think this industry is very roi focused and sometimes very short term orientated, which I think is is not great. And then, you know, making larger beds. Of course people maybe don't do not have the risk, and it's us a little bit maybe, because the industry have been doing really well. You know, he'll as ten, twenty years. So they were companies that, you know, the business was just going through the four years without, you know, needing to innovate quite a lot. And so I think now, you know, there's a lot of instruction coming to the industry, a lot of changes, a lot of pressure, you know, from the wall of talent towards, you know, new technology, to supply chain crisis, you know. So I think it's also very hard, right. So I obviously being now see off automotive company now, where you have so much going on, it's crazy hard to steal that company towards, you know, a path of success. It's crazy heart yeah, I think so. I think it's a very big challenge, but I think in the end, you know, it needs to come from the management, from the culture, to have a stronger bottom up, pottom up management style and also, you know, a bit more belief into teams, and I've seen a any on cases where this real leads to success, you know, where people are trying to work more agile and power a smaller teams. So there's a case, I think it's a case study by Audi where I think they basically the Alto Front done workers and approjected one Audi factory. They could, you know, work together at squads how to build up there their working plan and make it more agile. Right. So where you, for example, you know, work three days there and two days in a different segment, and they did it themselves right, without, you know, the need of let's say the management, and this apparently was a very successful project, just to name what example. Yeah, I hear you, manly. I think this like attitude and just focus. So I think actually just acknowledging that HR people investing there is actually important. People and like the systems are important in making that choice. Even if you just look at like giving example, look at forward and like Jim Farley come in leading the company, like the energy that's like come out of some of that, like even just online, like I can't imagine like internal, but I can see it online. You can feel it from employees just online, like just like that feeling like, okay, there's something changing here culture wise. That is like so critical and I think you're right. I think it changes that other problem, like the speed issue. It changes the ability to say, Hey, let's wait for next year to look at the budget, because it might not be a next year right. Next year may not may not work if it keeps going the way it's going, and your map of five hundred companies might quickly turn fifty and then they're going to start asking, you know, how do we fix this problem? I'm going to tell you all the four hundred and fifty companies. You would have helped you. They are all gone now. So you know, you're on your own. So that's yeah. I also I think it's scared actually for the industry that they won't be able to attract, you know, all the upcoming tones like Jen Z and so on. Rights who wants to work. You know, maybe a bit differently than all the generations, maybe doesn't work that same journey of many factories who are outside the big cities. Right and now, you know, how do you get this? You know, twenty four year olds, computer science graduate. You know who is top lunch degree to the countryside, you know, working on a very maybe that's boring, boring company. So how do you make this appeating? Only make a sexy? How to make this, you know, attractive for this kind of the nation? Yeah, because if knots, where will you get the talent...

...for the next twenty years? And top of that, there's a great resignation going on. So, on top of your losing from the bottom and they're retiring, you're actually not going to get the next generation. And I know it's happening. I give you an example. My engineering class, when I went through a decade ago, mechanical was the number one choice. Everyone was fighting to get into it. Ten years later it is on the bottom of the pile. Software the number one choice and all my friends who are, like you know, the top of the class have gone into software and they're not going into it to get into manufacturing. They're going into it to buill software products for software companies, and that's a real problem. Man like this is the same cluster of people in different cohorts that now have a completely different interests. That that's only going to make your problem. You're describing tendons worse over time, which, which is all I think is kind of interesting for the companies that are taking different approach, like, I think I always say, the EVs, for example, the tree be they're half software companies, man, like they're there software company in the skin of a vehicle. was there's so much software going on there that is attractive to the new JEN and even the hardware teams work like software teams, or at least closer to it. That's like it's coming down the pipe whether we wanted or not. That is like, realistically, what's going to happen. And Yeah, and that's why I think, you know, it's it's really I think these companies and everybody they shouldn't wait now. That's why I'm actually so probably. Yeah, that's why I'm so obsessed with this problem, because I think, you know, if you don't like now, it's gonna be too late. Yeah, yours right, yeah, like you need to invest now. I that's awesome, man. So like looking at the stack, thinking about like actually make a call action now and just like literally just thinking about what's important for the future and not just like three months from now. I think it's like super critical. When can we expect the next MAP UPDATE? As we wrap up here. The last one was at the end of last year. I'm usually doing, if you know, every six two to five months, depends. I was a little bit you know how how much I'm seeing. I can tell you is a little bit of work. Yeah, and the thing is, you know, it's also a little bit of work because not only editing the new ones, but you know, every time some companies also just disappear. And usually, you know, companies do not disappear with the boom now. So I know it's not like you see a new finding round of a company in. Okay, okay, make sense to add them and there's no I think they haven't seen like a great just data source for you know, doing this in the automated way. It's why maybe it's a little bit like manual and more curated. But and that's actually, you know, one of the most challenge, big challenges for me to you know, which are the companies. Maybe that I should, you know, just put out the map because they were quiet or day. Unfortunately, had to start down because that's usually the lot of one is usually very quiet, which you see, you need, but you learn a time from this. I can tell you you need a part time detective degree to make it all work problem and I really appreciate. First of all, I appreciate you join in, but I'm also appreciate ef you're putting in to doing all the things you're doing for the manufacturing world. I think that map itself, I can appreciate how ridiculous that must be to put together and keep out of, but even just going through and all the things are offering people, I really think it's super critical. So yeah, and I have, you know, happy to help other other funders or other people who are building in the space. You know maybe some of the words now, you know some of the bits, let's say, or maybe have it like a negative touch because you know, we basically were a little bit frustrated with how far slowly industry moves. On the long run, I'm extremely bullets on his industry. I think we will see many big companies created today in the next two years in this industry. I just think, you know, it's a matter of timing until we see this inflection point and I think it's super hard for everybody to predict that timing and I think for some, maybe verticals or some applications, we might see you today. For some of you will see it, you know, in the next two or three or four years. But overall, you know, I'm really excited. And for us, you know, it doesn't mean that we don't want to start this problem in manufacturing in the long run, but it's just like a...

...strategic focus for us, you know, focus on a sector with tech companies now. Now they just move faster where it's easier for us and then, hopeful the long run we can also help the companies that survived the don't to help their work force up, leveling into the next generation, or it's all over. reinvestmors key team of this is investing the right thing at the right time, and right now manufacturing is people. So I really appreciate joining our man. Thank you so much for all the insides to share today. Thank you and thanks a little good discussion, man. Awesome. The Care Colab is on a mission to accelerate the pace of engineering innovation by giving design teams a better way to work. As an engineering leader, you know it's crucial to empower your team to do their best work. Let colab help you achieve your goals with our web based tool that makes it easy to share and review cad files with anyone, so you can focus on the work that batters without missing a beat or a bolt. Learn more at Colab softwarecom. You've been listening to pure check, a Colab podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player, and please leave a rating on the show. That helps us keep delivering conversations about how the engineering world is changing and how you can challenge a Status Quell. Until next time,.

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