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Peer Check
Peer Check

Episode · 1 month ago

#18 - How big engineering companies can act nimble

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Look, we know it’s hard to drive real change within a large enterprise.

Bigger companies are notorious for moving slower when making decisions, adjusting processes, adopting new technology, and so on. There are plenty of reasons for this, and some of them are very good reasons. But as we saw when the Covid pandemic first hit: it doesn’t always have to be that way.

As a member of the Danfoss Power Solutions leadership team, Domenico Traverso heads up the Incubation division that launched in 2021. Devoted solely to fostering innovation in the industry, the Incubation division is comprised of seven business units — each with its own entrepreneurial leader. On this episode of Peer Check, Domenico joins host Adam Keating to share what he’s learned.

Listen as Domenico and Adam chat about:

  • What intrapreneurship means
  • Harnessing entrepreneurial spirit in product development
  • How leaders can drive change within large engineering enterprises
  • Why challenging status quo is an essential component of innovation    

More information about Domenico and today’s topics:

Welcome to Pierre Check, a Colab podcast. This is a show for engineering leaders who want to challenge the status quo for how design teams work together. You're about to hear a conversation about the ways the engineering world is changing and how top teams are carving a new path forward. Let's do it. Welcome Pier Check. I'm your host Adam Keating, and today we're talking about entrepreneurship. What is it and what does it matter so much of big companies, especially right now. My guest is in channership exact from Dan Foss to me to go Traverso he's been pushing the boundaries of entrepreneurship for the last decade plus um and really leading the chargement comes to electrification and incubation within dan Foss to thank you for joining us today. Thank you, thank you, thank you for inviting me. It's really pleasure. You're most welcome. My first question for you is what is entrepreneurship. You know, we spent a lot of time talking about entrepreneurship. What is entrepreneurship to you? Those are two different questions. One is what is entrepreneurship in general? And one and the second is what is entrepreneurship for me, because the entrepreneurship in general, I think it's a bit like acting as an entrepreneur or having a working in organization like complex organization, multinational large companies, where you want to keep this entrepreneur spirit or acting like the company is your own and making this kind of cause fast decision, having the full responsibility and so on, which is usually means really to make it work despite the matrix, despite really all of the function and so on, all the good things actually that the multinational can offer you, but still maintaining this full ownership and full full accountability also in a way, right, So that's that's more the entrepreneurships are you you try to act as an entrepreneur. Now, the entrepreneurship for me is coming from from the fact that I was away I'm almost fifty and since I'm fifteen, and I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And basically it's a story of a failure. I never made it because I kind of made it at the beginning, because I established my own little firm when I was nineteen actually, but I was a rapid basically what it was a firm, It was a registered firm, but I was selling on commission industrial components. And that's also is a way that you are in entrepreneur because at the end, really you need to do your stuff. And I had my accounting and so on, but at the end, really I was a major commission But then very quickly afterwards, I was hired by the first medium large company, and then I end up spending all my life in multinationals, and I still in all my life, basically I only changed three companies in my careers, and in all three companies the characteristic I had always been told from the very beginning, from the very first company, that yes, I'm really the entrepreneur in the oranization. So I always...

...end up in having this task where I'm always very independent. I'm always very autonomous, always very accountable. I have a full responsibility of the things since very young age, fundamentally because this is what I really wanted to do, and it was really my soul really that I wanted to develop a business, develop an enterprise and so on, and I end up in doing is in a company. And clearly, you know, when you really want something badly, you tended to go always in that direction. So clearly in my career has always been guided also the choices, maybe even unconsciously as being guided by going where I was living more space, more accountability. At the end, really I end up in doing a lot of turnarounds in my career where I was giving full responsibility and full autonomy really fixed the business. Whatever it takes is your your thing, but do it right quicker. And that was also a way really to be an entrepreneur in a large enterprise. So for me, it's more I want I wanted to in entrepreneur and I think make it. Then that's well entrepreneurship for me. So I'm curious at Damn Foster. You've got two very specific focuses. One's electrification, which I would argue for almost the whole industry is like a driver. So it's a very core part of where Damn FoST is going. The seconds you've got like this incubation lens of like other technologies. Can you just talk a little bit about like that structurally why those two components wildly while electrication in the entrepreneurship lens versus like another business unit, like give me a little sense you thought about that, because what you said a second ago was like how do you take a business and be like an entrepreneur, move fast and be accountable to change and like the electrification element is probably the biggest topic besides the recession and the market right now. It's like how do you get there? How do you win? How do you move your products? Like how do you think of supply chain? Just walk me through like those two components and what they mean for your job today and accountability. This happened not after it change in the organization we made we made last year based really as a company. We came up of a very large emerge and that we had we were forced also to reorganize and that we there was this there was the biggest opposition in the drolling sector. Not when the Emplace Past Solutions which is the drolling part of the Emplace group emerged with the EGO in Drawings and there were two equally big company more than two billion euros each and uh and so on emerging and then there was some overlap. But but also there was we had to recreate the ostruction basically the company was. It was a huge past emerging integration work. In this work, we had also the opportunity to really look back at what what do we do? And we decided ready to do something which is we discussed for many years and we always wanted to have now which is this incubation division or an incubation organization and portfolio where we can keep businesses or projects that are high eye tech or i I you know, innovation intensive, where we really you really need to develop in the years and usually are inbedded in the normal division in the...

...court businesses. And by being embedded in the court businesses like it or not, even in the best intention, they end up in being I don't know or impacted you know about the ups and down on the market, the ups and down of the business, whatever happened if you have to cost constrain or if you have a like on the other way round, you have that the market is booming, and then all the resources are going to the booming activities because you've got to do and then you cannot really totally protect a business which is development with a different pace or with a different with different time maybe in some case pretty revenue. So we selected like seven individual businesses or product line and so on, and and this is where the entrepreneurship come because at the end I didn't have any clear guidelines from the group and said, really, how do you do this right? So we could I could have proposed and said, really, we make like a big platform and all just projects and then we make a very large prestructure. I wanted to go for a model where it's very agile and uh. And then I put I set a boundary when I say, really, each of the projects, each of the product line has to be like a business unit, the P and L an independent business unit, because in that way, really well let them operate. First of all, they're all totally different from each other. There's no real synergies apart from the fact to get supported. There's no real synergies. And and then we keep it like independently. We put released six seventh sorry we call it like mini CEOs, and we wanted to have seven really leaders full leaders. It also is a good way there are some small businesses and so on, so you can also use it to develop future leaders. But we wanted to to preserve and to benchmark really the entrepreneur model. So we wanted to have we were benchmarking in this case especially for the pre revenue companies to start up companies right as all and all funded by major capitals. And so on, So they have this kind of agility, decision making, possibilities and so on. And we did it. So we we we created the seven we started last year. I mean the business were already existing or the project were already existing. In many cases, we turned a project into a business unit. So we create a structure, the leader, We create an organization. Now they can sell, that can produce, that can purchase path and depending what they do. Some is purely I mean we have one is making software engineering in solution, so there's no production. Others is very manufacturing. Others the future manufacturing is pre revenue. They don't produce yet, but they are at the end of the development of the product. And those are very different. And this is where we we did. We created this you know, entrepreneurship model were actually in this case, I'm not an entrepreneur, but I'm more supported the seven entrepreneurs. We wanted to create seven entrepreneurs. And maybe I work a little bit like more there either that the you know, the investment company or the adventure copy tents on the funding at the end. So...

I managed the funding, the support and so on, and and they need to develop according to a plan. And we keep a lot of discipline in and we review the results monthly. But also we keep a lot of discipline and say we need a very strong, solid strategic plan, you know, my stone and so on, and and we progress and this is one thing and I think it's working very well. We are very very happy of the outcome and also how the business are developing, how we are finding how we can pressure test initiatives which would have been difficult also in in a core business where they are embedded in large organization and work whatever. It's nice that you can kind of isolate that I like to met about, you know, separating from the ups and the downs of the core business, because what happened for most companies that don't have, you know, a focused entrepreneurship initiative, They'll have an innovation group that oftentimes it doesn't get quite resources it needs, and the second something goes sideways, resources start getting pulled, and those initiatives kind of die on the and one they're right, And I think having that core focus it's kind of cool, right You're kind of like a CEO in one lens and one half your job and then an investor in the other half. And then some are layered over the top of your coach for each of these companies, which is a pretty like pretty awesome role um when you think about it, are all those internetial or seven units? Are they all from within the business to start? Like they all came from projects inside? Or do you bring companies in external and tournament internal things like how does that work? Not for now? For now they are all coming from internal project, but some from internal project that was in the company we acquired, so that coming from two are coming from into Druidics. The others are more coming from the damps innovations. But in the in the various divisions, we're also looking at external, I mean, and it's a bit early now we have one year in the journey, but we are actively looking at h at the external. We have an organization in the amples which look only at external and startups. It's based in Bridge, Massachusetts. So just this is the office we have just in front of M I T. And we are very partnering. We are very close to MIGHT in many areas and including also the entrepreneurship actually school and so on, and we work with a lot of stuff that we observe, but we we map a lot of stufftops and who knows really, yeah, maybe in the future we will have a new guest, so that will believe that will be the things. One thing I wanted to add also that because because you you mentioned one of the value that this structure brings to multinationals to the emport today. But in general I think it's transparency because even if you do all the best of accounting, very often those highly innovative projects or eye tech products and so on, it's very difficult to track exactly how much it cost to you, how much it cost you running you. Of course you know how much it cost the product, how much it cost the development problem. They are our R and D and so on. But there is an overall efforts that the company is doing to maintain each of those technologlogies and...

...to develop these or those technologies which goes beyond the simple development of the product. Once you carve it out and you put it in a separate environment in a business unit with the proper p analysts on it, now you see everything and you will be surprised because then you know you have very real visibility of what are they fix of course, what are you spending here, what is your rent? What is your everything, and then you can also question yourself, really, but do I really want? Did did I really intended to invest this money? But it's good that you you post dis question because then you can discuss it and then you're really open and there's no surprises, and then you know what you're doing. So to the total cost of ownership of any initiatives until you really peel it back, and there's so much more the meets the eye. Like we talked to people all the time and when they're doing business cases, I think just pure you know, time saying equals you know, just the employee salary. It's like not really like the employee salary have a huge burden cost on top of that every hour you're wasting, you're wasting that plus this plus some other costs that you're missing all together, and it's like and so you see that it's it's difficult to just imagine what it is. And I guess I'm curiously on the back side of those like seven groups. You've got this stood up, it's really seemed like it's taken off. What does success mean like for an entrepreneur? You know, you might define an exit, you might define some large some large IPO like as an entrepreneur like these many CEOs per se they've got a little bit. It's going to what what is success are the new business units they spin out? Like what are the possibilities there? Now? I think there's a very good question, and this is also something we debated a lot in turn on you, and I think we have several level of success. I mean bear in mind and those products, uh, those broad lines of those bu they're being highly selected, so we have a success rate very eighs on whether usually when you are in your adventures, I mean you have to two on them, you're happy, I know three on them in our case really usually I mean we expect to have like nine on them. I mean sus so because they're being heavily selected, even if it's not mathematical, but in principle that the expectation is that most of them are successful. The success means first of all, to have a clarity of the development and a very very clear strategic line and keeping the pace of what you plan. To have a clear access strategy, which for us is not exit from like you sell it, but it's more the exit from incubation and going back into a normal division. In some case we have some of a business, it's such a high potential that it could be a division on its own because it maybe it could become more than alpha billion euros business or a very largely mention, or in another case, really they can become business unit in some other division from them. Force selling is not really our intention in general, but if we will find something that doesn't really fit for us, that could be also an option. I think we want to consider a success also if we stop something and this is still a success. And this year we have one of the is one of the seven...

...business we are now making a soft stop. And I think the overall idea is that we need to pressure TuS this business a very can understanding how much it cost to run it, how much it cost to develop it, what does it need to what does it take to make it really successful, and what is the full potential? And now if you realize that the business find like in that case we say the business very good, very good technology super we like it. He requires some redesign of the old electronic parts or this require cost, You require maybe relocation or or rethinking outsourcing or of sourcing, even changeing in manufacturing that's also complicated. And so the potential of this business, even if the technology is very exclusive, is very good. It will never exceed ten twenty million euros, which for a templeion euros company like them, that's difficult to make it. And I would say, really, okay, then we will soft close and we are not really shut it down in the day, but we're saying we're ramp it down and we replace it with the most standard product which will not have all the features, but we'll cover eighty percent the future. And yeah, we will lose some innovation in that case, but it's still better than running over investing in something that has a limited potential. And in their case, if we do this in seven months instead of seven years, the company is the Usually those those decisions you make it like in ten years. We have example in all multinational is like that. Not because you keep it until you see it, but yeah, but this is not sustainable. We want to make this is not sustainable decision in six months and not in six years. That's like the ultimate key. And that's that's what I love about the philosophy of thinking about it this way, because what we see, I'll be honest with you, I'm working with a lot of enterprise companies. Some of them are taking more than twelve months just to decide to start looking at initiative, let alone pressure testing the initiative. Like it might take twelve months to just literally walk through this Asian process, then another twelve months to start a PLC, another twelve months to do a pilot, and a couple of years to roll it out. By the time you've done that, most times, the technology is either obsolete or about to get crushed by the next wave of technology. Right, And I think that time, like the thing we're hearing in market today, especially for electrification, is like time to market is critical. It's you know, it's the number one thing driving everything. If you could do that six months, if that's brilliant, because I actually like the story more of the one you're saying no to than any of the one is saying yes to, because that's just a pivot, right, Like you can make a smart business decision. And if you're giving these like in a c e O s the lens to have that accountability, they can go say, yeah, this makes Domenico, this doesn't make any sense, Like we we shouldn't do this. There's no ur y at the end. And that's such a powerful thing because you know, you think about effectiveness as an organization, effectiveness will be doing the right things right, And most companies talk about efficiency, which is doing things better, but like half the time you're doing the wrong things. It's a big company because there's so much And I love the I love the lens of saying no to...

...one is a success because like that is successful in my mind. You saved the company a poor result five years earlier, which is really really cool. And I guess the question I would ask you is, like you said, you jumped into this and you've had this role like you know, whether formally or informally, throughout your whole career. How did you spin this up? Like how did you you said you came about and thought about it all, Like how did you take the first steps to even like get this entrepreneurship group moving? How did the electrification lens like fit into that inspire that just like give me a sense for someone else listening, you know, they're thinking about you know, I want to be a change a change agent and think about how to help build this how do you even start? Like where do you even go to start. Yeah, there's as a good question, and there's there's no one single lenswer, of course, because it depends. Maybe we'll talk later about identification, because maybe it is a is a good example, is not a different different anymore in this case from from the incubation, how do you start? And then how do you start those changes? And as you mentioned, I've been spending most of my careers in changes and internal and situation. And the turnaround means really fixing a company that is loss making for for sometimes not because of a market situation or for a contituency problem, but just because of something structure. So that's really the turnaround, and how do you fix how do you start to make those changes? And you can say there is a correlation between the turnarounds, of course and incubation, even if it's a completely opposite process because in incubation you're not looking for the profitability. You're looking for the development of the technology, and the profit really come after, of course, but still that the concept is the same. Now you need to make it a significant change, and you need to establish an organization, a powerful coalition that drive the change and drive the faults. So of whether they're in common those things. Number one thing, how do you start? First of all, either you are the leader or the local things that the things you want to fix, or you need to find a leader. You cannot start without a leader. I had a lot of debates as or in the in the in the past two years about others organization and somebody asking me advices on and we're talking about like turnaround situation and we're discussing, okay, how do you do it? Then I heard the companies saying, really okay. But then the first thing is we scope it, we understanding, so we like a very process driven we understand the plan, we make a plan, we understand the plan, and then we we try to institutional situationalize the plan, and we name a leader. And I was saying, really, this is very nice and it worked perfectly in a power point, but it doesn't work. It will never work, not in a distress situation. Distress situation is the turnaround is a distress situation and incubation or when you are in a startup situation where you anyway, even if you are inside the corporate that you are, you know you are in resting every month happily and you...

...have no revenue, so you are you are under pressure and it doesn't work. So the way you work is that number one, you need to find the leader. That's always been my first things. I was the leader or I need to find the leader. So one of the two depending on the situation, and the leader has to be is not a leader that is far away and you know, supervising coming to visit you once a month and so on. The leader is the one staying night and day in the thing and working on developing and fixing whatever is that need to be done. And the second things is still about the organization. So even before you plan anything and so on, you need to establish at least the skeleton, at least really the key function of the small team. So you need to have the three or four persons that you trust, that you trust on the right one. Even if you take it from outside and somebody need to trust, those are the people that can make it. You need to have somebody from the organization. Of course, it cannot be that you have three or four people from outside coming and fixing everything without knowing the story. And then you can start the planning. And then you started planning that you start the project. Then you started all unfolding all the other things. But if you do the other way around, it never worked. I saw it in many cases failing just because you think, you know, I want to plan everything, and then we start the goal and then we find the leader and it doesn't work. It's like it's just like an entrepreneurship, right, It's very is the reason why being a founder of a company, albeit you might not have the experience, is a huge competitive advantage because it's your it's your brain child, right, It's the thing you care about deeply. But I can't imagine walking in to a distress distress situation where someone gave me, like here's like the handbook and you're reading for the first time. You're kind of like, I don't know about this handbook, Like the buying commitment, like feeling of ownership is such a critical element to entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship, you know, doing anything that disrupts And I'm curious, like one of the things you talk to me about, like early on Rebel Talent, the book, I've only read it and seen parts of it, but I know that the core concept and I know like literally LinkedIn picture got the book with you, and you talk about like disrupting status quo. I'm thinking about sort of being that change maker. What are the core pieces of that book that you think of like governed your career. I know you've talked about, like even talking with the author, like super cool experience. What have you pulled out of that that's influenced sort of like how you've gone in UM and thought about entrepreneurship. Yeah, the story of the book is rettly bit cooler because I didn't know Francesca Gino, and I didn't know about the book until really I saw actually in an event where also Damphos was presenting, and it was a presenter. It was also a present as a guest together with a Dampho's colleague, and I heard what she was saying, and that really was resonating a lot, not because she was really talking about this rebel, but in the positive center. We always give rebel this negative senses everything level as someone doesn't perform it, doesn't doesn't want to do this stuff, and so on. But there's also the rebel in...

...positive sense, and if you look at it, many success are creating not by overcompliance but also by challenging the start square in a good way. But also accepting to those things which are not according to the rules and not according to what the way we always done things. And now the reason of course it is a fine line, right so, and you work in especially if you're work in a larger mutination, you're not the entrepreneur. So there are processes, there are rules and policies and so on, so you need to navigate into that. But I think really what I felt myself before meeting Francisco, and I always use it as a funny job with my team also in the past. It's really that we are a pirate right now because in a way where I always find myself in this situation of distress and financial turnarounds and so on, and you cannot always comply with everything, but you need to make sure you comply with everything. And I always find myself right in the line because our companies were really different, I mean, like especially in the turnaround. I mean was running a division in Naples when I joined them for the first time, I was running a division when I was called standalone division. And then the name gives an idea. We were already independent. We had to operate in a different way. But on the other side, we were by part of a large company. So we is this magic balance now to to to follow the rules on the other on my side, but without ways in the agility and making decision and you stretch it up to a limit. And you need to have this kind of agreement. At that time, really I was having the agreement directly also with the CEO of at that time was sobur Naples well before them was by solutions and say really, okay, I'm doing these things and we're shortcutting here, we are doing this and so on. And if you have a good alignment with the company leadership, with the CEO, with the CEF for the group that that's works, then you can do it. Of course, you need to do it. You need to do it in a good way, so and and and you need to have the trust of the company, because if you don't have the trust and then it doesn't work. But that's the only way you can act. This is the only way you can be an entrepreneur. And at the end really acts fast because those situations we distress, they don't allow you to wait for decisions or to follow longer policy chain and so on. We did it actually in the years. I mean, of course being always compliant, but also stretching really this uh this role up to the end. And and I know really from one side, I always are telling me, really the manner you made it again, you you you succeed the game with this initiative. On the other side, I know it was also like a bit you always close really like to to break some rules with yours. We we've got to be careful. And I think if it is in a good way that works. And then also helped the company to develop, because actually have the company to experiment. What can you do also to be fast and margized, which are the processes which are purely bureaucratic and doesn't add the company. And then you you you can challenge it in mon entities and so only in a controlled way. And that's where resonated with Francesca ideas of this rebel talent because she was...

...gay. She's telling stories that she explored and she studied or she lived those in some case where the rebellion to something was the one creating the enormous success. And these are the various examples, but she studied the hundreds of cases like that, and I think really she finded that sweet spot of your rebellions, but you still compliant and you're still delivering the results, and you're still you're still good. There's a good rebellion, it's not a better rebellion, and it's in a positive and constructive way with the with the with the view, and you have the in a good faith that you really want what is best for the company. You acting the interest of the company because you feel it is your own. And that's the entrepreneurship. I think, like if you do that, as long as you're open, you communicate well, and you're a line at the highest level when it comes to values and like mission, that's okay, Like that's what cured ups are Like a series of very small, very like thousands and millions of decisions, right and being able to go through those and think differently is what makes the difference. And as long as you, like I always say, when we build collab, like our mission vision values like that is like higher core fixed like that part cannot change, will not waiver, There is no going outside of that. Within that, though, there's obviously things we need to do, like we need to make sure we treat all of our data very securely, so there's certain rules that you're like, we're never going to do something that's risky there now for the rest of the business, we might be doing how do you think about it talking to a customer or going through this workflow or building this component. We experiment this stuff all the time and we make sure that the process that the end catches you know, what might be risk And I think if you do that well and you communicate well, like, that's what it's all about, right I think the problem for most organizations is they don't challenge it in first place, to accept that has just been that way, and then be if they do challenge it, they don't communicate it well, so then everyone gets frustrated. And I think if those two things happen, then you get like that bit of pain and I'm curious with like, you know, kind of bring it back to the last part of your role when it comes to clarification. That's close to your core business, right, Like, that's not as separate as the seven groups that you have an incubation. How do you do that in a way that is disruptive and change focused, but not disruptive to like the production of your core business and frustrated people on day to day like, how do you strike that balance as rattle and business operator of a business line that's been around for a long time. You wouldn't believe no, But by role for a drone actually is a different head and there's a different play than the one in incubation because when an incubation we need to be like you know, innovative and the spark, accelerate the real development technology and so on. Eight tron is already doing those things naturally. I mean Adatron is led by by by keep around one and if you google it is it's a serial entrepreneur also round Front from the pasta it made a many startups and so...

...many inventions. I'm always discovering new inventionally made well. It's a super creative person, super smart, super charismatic, and he has a team really also offers smart and super super technological people. They are really running fast on innovation and technology. And in that case my role is the opposite, and that's where the challenge comes. You need to learn and to do a little bit of everything. It's still maybe ann's an entrepreneurship an entrepreneur role, but in that case my role is small to give it discipline, to add the industalization and to add Kima and their organization too, to stay within certain framework and to develop it as a large industrial business. Agent is growing and now fort per year, but it's just limited by by capacity. Because we could we could grow easily this year, we could have gross seventy percent, no problem, we just limit by our own capacity. Over its delibering me. You know, also making electronics and so on. We also have supply chain constraints. That's cool though, because like you kind of got the whole gamut right. You've got the earliest Verry scrappy startup. We'll call it like you know, Precede Seeds Series A, and then you've got the series BT I p O Business Laws in the other hand, which is that's kind of cool. I didn't realize that. I thought it was like a little more. I like that you have both parts because I think for you to be able to appreciate one or the other, you need to understand both, because if you were just an incubation and you didn't appreciate the like actual true commercialization, those people aren't going to be able to respect. You know, You're gonna be pushing them super hard one way, and they're gonna be like, come on, man, like this is not how this works. But having both hats is actually a little bit of superpower. Then it is funny because I moved from one call or meeting or visits right with them. I said, really, you could say, we take whatever business we need to grow. We developed fast and the wind broach to this on and then I go to it and I say, no, you kind of this brugeon, this is no good. We have stayed to our plan, to stick to the plans our compared with our capacity, and as we need to do the things right and it just like properly automated and so so it's more like the rational past. So we joke about the fact that in the Indian drum, I'm a little bit the lawyer of a drum, but in incubation really and more than your capital right really to to talk saturate and to make them success. I don't know if I've ever met someone who's been both bucy and a lawyer. That's an interesting combination. Um listen, thinking about interrenership, like wrapping up kind of that thought, like you've obviously had a very successful career and you've affected a lot of positive change even last year. Right, this preble at these seven groups of team that wraps back down fast. What would be like your party thought for someone else who's considering, you know, wanting to have a bigger role and want to start down this path. Right, you've been at this for a while building out your expertise and experience understanding how do you start?...

Where would you can start? If you're like a personal leader who wanted to be a lot more entrepreneurial in your company, this is a big decision that especially a young talent they have to do because now, especially in a large companies also like us, if you're really good, you're a talented, you're capable, and you tend to have a career, and you have a career and you grow in the company, you can have also very very good role that I level an organization at the young age, with also consequence remunerations and everything and so on. But you end up in functions, you end up with a group of people and so on, and they are super great roles of course, But if if you want to be an entrepreneur or if you want to be a business leader, this is a different story. So in many cases, if you're if you're really talented, you're good, and you really have this dream in your heart to be an entrepreneur, to be a piano leader, to be a company leader, to be a business leader, and so on. You really need to accept and you need to drive your career toward the opportunities, which in many case means, especially for the most talent the leaders, which I see really people in the age of thirty and so on, is a fundamental decision to make. Am I going to be like, you know, ahead of strategy or something, or you know, or even in operational things and so on and supply chain or whatever other large functions and so on, or do I run, do I take full responsibility for a small business for a small and then's in some cases it can be it can appear like a step back because in the overall rating or the level of the organization, this means that you have to choose more the entrepreneur role versus the I is one in career. What That's what I'm saying. You really need to love it. And I got the opportunity in my in my last I mean the last ten years, I got opportunity to take more functional role which are also a great role and I'm not uh, I go off also sales and marketing positions globally, strategy and so on. But still you need to look at yourself then what do you want to do. Sometimes if you look at the highest salary or the higher job titles and so on, maybe it's more like all you like also that the function. It's fine, it's very difficult that people that likes really to work in the function, they also have a heart for entrepreneurship in the sense where they really want to be a p n N leader. There are two different careers in a way. And then you prefer reads take a small business. I lead it, and maybe it's a step back, but this is what I love to do. That's basically the advice if you want to be an entrepreneur, and you if you want to be an entrepreneur, you need to walk the talk and be an entrepreneur. Yeah, it's the same advice that I actually got when I first started collapse, that you know, that's what you really want to be doing is building, and really think about building. The rest. Generally, if you're doing the right, things will sort of fall on the place over time. It's not gonna be perfect, but if you get into that.

Like my actually had a really cool opportunity at university and I turned it down to Stari Colab, the co founder. Also I had an opportunity on the first engineers in the test of Semi, so we both turned down roles that were like kind of our super cool career goals. The first step at university and the advice we got from both of our supervisor at the time was that if this doesn't work out for you and trying to build colap, we're still going to watch you and probably even more because you went and tried to do that, which is like the thing for us. We were lucky, right. We didn't have any baggage. We didn't have things to think about, money and houses and kids and families, so we were lucky. It's harder once you're in your career to make there's a lot more decision making to make. But if you can take that early on, I believe that it will if you're dedicated to it, the opportunities will still be there for other paths. It's harder later on to switch because you do, like you said, I to sacrifice things and there's more risk and once you have a family and kids. I know myself if I had once I have kids like it would be way harder for me to say, oh yeah, I'm just gonna cut my salary in half and not worry about this and that, because you know, you get to think about feeding your children versus you know, meeting craft inner, starting collab, sleeping on couches in hotels and stuff. For the first few years, that was cool. I was an experience, So yeah, I respect that. I think that's incredible. Tonico. I want to say thank you so much for joining today and and helping us unpack entrepreneurship. And also I really liked the thought about the two sides, the BC and the lawyer. I'm coming back to just the value of understanding both. But thank you so much for joining. Thanks to you, it was really pleasure. I think. Really those are great, great deditiatives and really helpful to learn more. So I'm blessing Hornor to be here. Thanks. Collab is on a mission to accelerate the pace of engineering innovation by giving design teams a better way to work. As an engineering leader, you know it's crucial to empower your team to do their best work. Flat Collab help you achieve your goals with our web based tool that makes it easy to share and review CAD files with anyone, so you can focus on the work that batters without missing a beat or a bolt. Learn more at Collab software dot com. You've been listening to pure Check, a Colab podcast, keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player, and please leave a rating on the show that helps us keep delivering conversations about how the engineering world is changing and how you can challenge the status quo. Until next time,.

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